Earlier, you made 5: ECHO and 6: THE SQUARE, based on the circle and the square. Now you are working on 7: TRIPLE MOON, using the triangle as a starting point. Why this fascination with abstract forms?

Since the cuts to culture in 2011, I have made pieces such as Piece, Shirokuro and Antigone, which were about empowerment. I wanted to say to the audience that it is important to fight for your values. In Germany, where I come from, the discussion about the legitimacy of the arts as it was then could never exist. Culture is not something you can abolish. It is there as a matter of course, poetry and theatre are part of society. I was very angry because people did not dare to take a position. I thought it was so crazy that colleagues didn't want to be difficult artists. I phoned everyone, I stood up at the Uitmarkt to speak.... In retrospect, that was my most political time.

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In 2013, I wanted to get back to the core of my work and 4: STILL LIFE was the beginning of a new period. The starting point was the quietness of a work of art, literally like a still life hanging in a museum, whose composition and colours viewers can look at and wonder at underlying thoughts. I read a lot about Bauhaus, the art movement that was already working on synaesthetic experiences 100 years ago. They experimented with colours and sound, with the performative aspects of music. A total cross-pollination of disciplines. The same period also saw the invention of abstract art. I discovered that painters like Mondrian were very much inspired by spirituality, for instance by people like Helena Blavatksy and the theosophical movement. So that abstraction was also a search for meaning, using universal signs and archetypal forms. This fact, that form can bring so many connotations, so much content, and in a deeper sense is about how we want to live together, I found enormously inspiring. This is also how I am now trying to approach the triangle in 7: TRIPLE MOON.

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How do you get from a starting point to a concept for a performance?

I always start with research. That initially brought me to the patriarchy and the trinity Father, Son, Holy Spirit. But that seemed like a boring starting point. I found it interesting to look for the feminist alternative. Primal goddesses have existed in many cultures. I have read a lot about the new feminism and I am convinced that masculine thinking, which represents a certain linear way of thinking, a thinking in oppositions, has reached a peak in our society but is now basically exhausted. The election of Trump, for example, shows this, which is pure idiocy. But slowly space is emerging for more connective, feminine thinking. Unlike the feminism of earlier generations, this is independent of gender.

Researching what the triangle might mean eventually led me to the female trinity Maiden, Mother, Crone. So maiden, mother, wise old woman. That became the starting point for this performance. For me, a new play is also an occasion to learn for myself. I don't just make it for the stage, the process is also important. That's why I always make booklets, to give people something more than just the experience in the moment. And I believe in zeitgeist. It is not so much myself who has genius ideas but I notice things or perceive what prevails. For this topic, the same is true. For example, Michael Moore recently released the documentary Where to Invade Next, in which he outlines that the future is in the hands of women.

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What is your role in the rehearsal room, how do you proceed?

I work quite intuitively but stay within my quest. In rehearsals, I mainly try to create space and be constantly alert. I have no set way of working, the premise of the performance determines what is needed. Often I use Kalaripayattu, which is an Indian martial art that I practice myself. But it can also be ballet, ballroom dancing, or yoga. For 7: TRIPLE MOON, we sometimes meditate as we look for other ways to "get into our bodies". I give improvisation assignments and the dancers develop idiosynchratic movement material based on their dreams and inspired by the mythological figures Demeter, Persephone, and Hekate. I constantly have to choose direction and be able to make quick decisions, and then the challenge is to trust my intuition and know that the direction I choose is related to the whole. 'Create first, analyse later', as John Cage said. I read back my first briefing to the team today. I wrote that one three months ago but everything we are working on now is already in there. So I am still on my path.

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Openness, freedom and fighting ideologies are topics that often recur in your work. Do you see that as your main task as an artist?

Basically, it's about the porosity of life. My job is to work with the here and now and that has a different law than ideology. In the rehearsal studio or when I talk to people, my job is to look very carefully, to listen actively, not to be biased. Not to exclude anything, not to get bogged down in my own views. That makes the work very broad at first but now I know I can trust my gut feeling. That there is nothing I can cling to, except the exchange, is at the heart of how I work.

Another recurring aspect of your work is that you often draw on art and cultural history. Where does that come from?

It has to do with my background. I went to a humanist grammar school, a classical school with strict teachers but there was a great freedom in thinking. My father is a Greek and Latin teacher and I travelled a lot with my parents. So my home environment was very much about openness and an interest in other cultures, and that you have to be present, aware and humane. We lived in Istanbul and went on holidays to Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, India, Afghanistan. I love exploring where things come from. If I hadn't become a choreographer, I'd be an archaeologist. But in my work, that only came into play later.

Initially, I mainly wanted to explore new forms. I studied visual arts in Munich and then came to Amsterdam for the School for New Dance Development. After graduating in 1997, I spent 10 years making work in which I was exploring new forms and developing personal movement material. Eventually, I got a bit tired of that. Everything was about finding your own path, your own artistic signature. Then I felt like exploring the roots of dance. I wondered why people actually sit in a room to watch dance. So I ended up with classical ballet and the fact that the virtuoso dancer only emerged after the founding of the first academy, where Louis IV danced. This created a distance between dance and the audience. I wondered what this meant for me as an artist and how to bring dance closer to the audience. From this, the performance Les Sylphides was born. In it, I put the audience around the dancers, so the ballerinas are also visible from behind. That's how it started, that I actively embraced history again.

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Considered this way, art can also be a form of knowledge. Do you consider your work itself this way?

It's a way of looking at the world anew. That can be instructive. Not in a didactic way; I'm not going to educate people, I'm trying to open up space and hope that people who are sensitive to that will recognise this. I hope my pieces invite not only consumption but also reflection. It is about the Appolinic as well as the Dyonisic, as Nietzsche so eloquently put it.

Experience is also very important, our bodies being the biggest thing we carry with us. Through our mirror neurons, we recognise on stage who we are, how we behave, with what energy and intensity. Recognising that means you can take something from it into your own body. Our lives are currently largely defined by the internet. But that is so... hygienic. It doesn't smell, it has no blood, no body, it basically denies everything we are. Yet we get up with it and go to bed with it. Inevitably, I also have a kind of missionary urge to make the world a better place. I am not someone who works through provocation because in the end it is about connection. Together we are stronger. You go to the theatre to experience something together and the danger of the live act makes that essential. It is fantastic that there is a whole group of people sitting together there, becoming one body, relating together to one content. The concentration that theatre demands, I love that a lot.

You also have a connecting role in the field of contemporary dance and performance. What is your take on developments in the field?

The art here is progressive, there is room for experimentation and new forms. It's an attitude, a progressive thinking that really doesn't exist everywhere. I realised this when I was in Melbourne a few years ago to teach a workshop. The plan was to stay for six months but I missed Amsterdam's cultural scene very much. After ten days, I came back.

Currently, it is moving a bit more towards creative design. The divisions between so-called applied art and free art, and between disciplines such as music, film and performance are increasingly disappearing. With so many courses, the field is also large. Unfortunately, it is also fragmented, which is why we started BAU, a platform for the independent dance and performance scene in Amsterdam. New voices are important, we would like to give them more self-confidence and maybe they can also move a bit in politics. I myself am tired of working ad hoc. Fortunately, we also have a number of relationships and partners with whom we can draw longer lines. For instance, we work together with Operadagen, Silbersee and have good relations with Spring, Frascati and the Stadsschouwburg. The fact that Ammodo has supported us several times is also very nice, that trust is necessary. The pressure and responsibility are significant but I am still very happy to be able to make theatre. The days are too short so I also work at night. But it doesn't feel like a burden, I really enjoy doing it.

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You are building a repertoire, a body of works. Performances by NB Projects may reappear years after the premiere and sometimes in different forms or contexts. Is that a conscious choice?

Yes, I fought for that for a long time, that performances can come back. The work I make is not one-season work. I see my performances as works of art that deal with time and context but are also timeless. So if possible, I try to make them live on. Right now, I'm taking the triangle as a starting point to explore female power. It is an occasion to look at what goes on between visible things. As Rebecca Solnitt wrote: 'Let's go into the dark with our eyes open'.

Published on 8 June 2017.